It is currently Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:38 am

 Page 1 of 1 [ 4 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:34 am
Posts: 39
<center><font color=gold size=+2>Revelations

Revelation is not written by a Christian, not written by an apostle of Christ, not written by John and is not distant prophecy but rather a near time "vision" of desire couched in what were then present-time frustrations.

Not only does this reprimand to the seven churches in Revelation in chapters 1-4 represent an incongruity of TIME (Present vs. future) but also a incongruity of BELIEF, with verses 1-4 demonstrating a christian belief and the body of Revelation showing what is and can only be a Jewish belief foundation which quite clearly even now only recognizes Jesus as the long anticipated Christ savior and not the Christ who has already been among man.

Revelation is a compilation of old testament imagery that was later given a preface (chapters 1-4) which is the only portion of Revelations drawing on Christian beliefs while simultaneiously chastising 7 errant churches in western Asia Minor - an exhibit itself which shows frustration and focus on the times at hand and not times yet to come. Distant prophecy from God is hardly the time to focus on current reprimands.

Most of the apocalyptic imagery in Revelation has been borrowed from Old Testament imagery. While there is no direct reference to Old Testament passages, of the four hundred or so verses are about five hundred and fifty references to the Old Testament (B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort, Greek New Testament, pp. 184 ff. ). Specifically the Old Testament books from which these imagers are drawn are of Isaiah, Ezra, Ezekiel and, in particular, Daniel, which also has fantastic images of the End Time and refers to `one like a son of man.' As is accustomed in the Old Testament the "God of wrath" releases seven `vials of his wrath' - blood, plague, sores, fire, draught, etc. The numerous images of this apocalypse include all sorts of earthly horrors seen in the OT such as 'demonic locusts' torment unbelievers and Kings, captains, false prophets and `the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great' are eaten by fowls that fly and are cast alive into a lake of `fire and brimstone - fire and blood, mountains of fire cast into the sea, a burning star falling to earth, every mountain and island displaced. Unbound carnage.

Chapter after chapter of the "prophecy" details bizarre horrors with numerous, convoluted and often contradicting details.

The early origin of the book is attested by its doctrinal incompatibility with the rest of the New Testament and Christian founamental beliefs. The doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere in sight. Rather, Revelation embodies Philo's notion of `multiple emanations' the `seven spirits of God' (3:1, 5:6) Later biblical books, in the Chronology of the Bible, will slim this down to a single <b><a href="" target="_blank">Holy Spirit</a></b>. Revelation has no dogma of `original sin' ; it is idolatry which damns the mass of humanity. Baptism is not mentioned; believing Jews are `sealed' not baptised. There is no reference to the Eucharist -- nothing so genteel as a meal with friends mars the carnage. To the author's obvious delight, `Babylon' (the Roman Empire) falls unrepentant and the vast mass of humanity perishes. There is no religion of love here but only undiluted hatred and lust for revenge against Israel's enemies.

In fact Revelation could only be the writings of a embittered Jew, grounded in the Old Testament (Torah) and not the writings of an apostle of Jesus Christ, John, to whom this passage is attributed. Throughout Revelation we see the embodiment of early Jewish and for the most part pagan imagery and fantasy. One of these 'emanations' of God actually involves Christ being born in the heavens "clothed in the sun, with the moon at her feet, wearing twelve stars as a crown'. Unlike the New Testament, Christ is born in the heavens to reign on earth and not born on earth to reign in the heavens - as is consistant with Judaic beliefs. Even in this writing Christ is only marginally ahead of Moses in the pecking order: Thus in Rev 15:3 the martyrs sing `the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb' and also even from Revelation 1:5 Christ is `the prince of the kings of the earth.' (Only a prince?)

Nothing in Revelation suggests that this Christ is ever incarnated on earth. Though said to have been `dead , and is alive' (Rev 2:8), within the out of place 4 chapter preface, the circumstances of this dying and rising are never given. Christ has many appearances throghout Revelation: He appears as a high priest; later in the book, he is `alpha and omega' (first and last), the beginning and end of God's creation that has existed from all eternity. He is also the `bright morning star' and the `Lamb of sacrifice'. Yet Christ's primary role in Revelation is as a Jewish warlord, who `doth judge and make war'. This celestial war god bears little in common with a Galilean carpenter or the teaching of Love demonstrated by Jesus Christ in the New Testament:

<blockquote>"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (19:13,15)</blockquote>

Yet at one point War breaks out in heaven after the seals are opened and it is not Christ who is the conquering hero but rather the archangel Michael who is Isreal's patron angel champion.

Of particular note here is the description of SALVATION in Revelation. Nowhere is there evident the Christian belief that faith in Christ achieves salvation. On the contrary, on the day of judgement it is `works' (public action) that will count, not the Christian `grace through faith'. In fact these "works" are more in reference to the Jewish Priests within the bounds of that CHurch, with these being notably ONLY Male, as is Judaic custom, and male virgins at that, with women being defiled and currupt. This is not the teaching of Christ.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection... they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:5,6)

Notable above in Rev 20:5,6 is that these "Priests of Christ" are not priests of the Christian Christ, Jesus, born of earth and resurrected upon death, but rather the Jewish Christ Whom the Jews believe has yet to come but is arrived in this dream/desire of Revelation.

Some the righteous brethren of course are saved, but the idea of `resurrection in a single day' for all of humanity as seen in Matthew 25 has not yet evolved and is not a part of the beliefs of the time. Instead the end of times as depicted by Revelation demonstrates a two track redemtion. In the first, Christ rules an earthly kingdom for a thousand years while Satan, confined but not defeated, is locked up in a pit. During this period, 144,000 Jewish males (12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel) are the only ones to share the kingdom . In this heaven, there is not a single woman. The male elect are `not defiled by women; they are virgins'! (14:4).Everyone else is still dead!

At the end of the thousand year reign of seeming "golden age of Jewish virginity", Satan is loosed from the pit and now a final apocalypse wrecks havoc on humanity. Presumably the rest of humanity is only resurrected in order to be killed off and yet remarkably, Satan's army is still numerous! "And he shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." (20:8)

Finally Satan and his minions are all defeated and a new Heaven is create in but a few lines of Revelation, hardly the grand expectation of the modern day faithful. However, curiously, even now outside the golden city there are still the unrighteous!:

(Rev 22:15)</blockquote>

One must ask, "what has changed in this 'revelation'?" Nothing.

Quite clearly the one thing we are NOT dealing with in Revelation is a clear vision of the future. In fact Revelation is very likley not a vision of the distant future at all and more a vision (wish) for the immediate future at or near the time of its writing. Revelation is a "wish" which is not at all written by an apostle of Christ and with chapters 1 through 4 only being after-the-fact attempts to make this enigmatic and fascinating tale of glory and repeated carnages fit into Christian beliefs. Revelation is not a Christian writing and does not belong in the New Testament. Ultimately it is very UNlikely that Revelation applies to your and my salvation in a new Heavenly Kingdom, unless we have the extreme good fortune to be a adult male virginal priest or one of the select 144,000 from the original 12 tribes of Israel.

In actuality, it is very likely that Revelation is refering to the times of the reign of Galba (68-69 AD) and the "beast" referenced is disguised using the Jewish system of numerology, Gematria, due to the confusion and possible threats at this time of the crisis of the year 67/68, the so called <b>"year of four emperors"</a></b>. The reason for the encryption was the then rumors that Nero Ceaser, "the beast", was not dead and would return. Nero Ceaser does, in fact, resolve to "666" using gematria.

<font color=gold>Roman History Of the Times</font>

A Brief Roman History:
<table><tr><td><img src=""></td><td><img src=""></td><td><img src=""></td></tr><tr><td><center>GALBA</center></td><td><center>OTHO</center></td><td><center>VITELLIUS</center></td></tr></table><hr style="color:gold">
<center><b><font size=+1><a href="" target="_blank">"The Year Of Four Emperors"</a></font>
68 - 69 AD </b></center>
In 68 AD, <b>Nero</b> was succeeded by <b>Galba</b>, whose dedication to reform quickly made him unpopular. Although Clodius Macer's revolt in Africa was suppressed, the German legions then proclaimed <b>Vitellius</b> emperor. Galba was assassinated in a coup led by <b>Otho</b>, who did not last long as Emperor, taking his own life after his forces were defeated by Vitellius, who in turn fell to <b>Vespasian</b> after losing the battle of Bedriacum.

<hr style="color:gold"></blockquote>

Revelation is nothing more than a representation anti-Roman frenzy born of fear at the culmination of years of Roman imperialistic oppression and meant to stiffen the brethren through lurid images of their foes in torment.
<blockquote><b>And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.</b>
(Rev 17:10,11)</blockquote>
The seven kings referred to are the emperors of Rome. At the time of writing, five are past or "fallen" and are Augustus, Tiberias, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The one who rules still, Galba, ruled from June 6, 68 to January 15, 69. The prophesy is made that only one other will rule. Could Nero be the he who "was and is not" (alive then thought dead then come again)? How is this possible? The answer is that the crisis of the year 67/68 (the so-called year of four emperors) lasted long enough for rumours to spread throughout the then known "world" that Nero had not died at his own hand, but had fled to Persia, had raised an army and would reclaim the throne from the interloper Vittelius. the appearance of an impostor on the island of Kithnos (Thermia) claiming to be Nero was only served to fuel the rumors of Nero's anticipated return.

These events in The history of Rome pretty thoroughly nail down the time of authoring of Revelation to the year 69AD.

The historically recognized persecution under Nero gives real motivation for the encryption of the name "Nero Ceaser" in Gematria due to the reasonable fears by both Jews and proto-Christians enhanced from the uncertainies of events then transpiring. The enigmatic use of Gematria, which does, in fact, resolve the name "Nero Ceaser" to "666" when written as it then appeared in Hebrew, without any vowels, is a reasonably expected outcome in a writing expounding on the demise of Nero, who was then thought to be still alive. Not surprisingly, the vagueries of the gematria encryption method, once required to protect the author and religious adherents from immediate threats, do still contribute to and fascilitate the continuing projection of this identity upon current times and personages.

The fact is that what is in evidence in Revelation shows itself to not be distant phrophecy at all but rather a succumbing to existent rumors and fears about the very time in which the document was written.</blockquote>

<center><hr width=180></center>
Many early Christians rejected Revelations outright, attributing authorship and the described doctrine of an `earthly kingdom' to a late first century Jewish Egyptian heretic called <b>Cerinthus</b>. Revelation is essentialy Jewish scripture with Chapters 1-4 added on after-the-fact to legitimize the document which did (and still does) fascinate so many with its opulent descriptions of the glory of God and the wide array of bizarre carnage.

In Conclusion, all indications are that the Biblical book "Revelation" was not written as a distant prophecy and was likely written as a near-time "wish". Ironically the conclusion that the only christian trappings in Revelation were added on after the fact is supported by Revelation itsef:

<blockquote>Revelation 22:18-19

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: <b>If anyone adds anything to them</b>, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. <b>And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy</b>, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.</blockquote>

This passage warns of dread consequences for adding or taking away anything from the prophecy of Revelation. What is curious is that the preface to Revelation, chapters 1 through 4, the only portions of Revelation that offer any sort of evidence of a Christian perspective, in no way add to the "prophecy" of revelation, nor do they change it in any way. These 4 chapters do not even pretend to be prophetic in nature. What is even more curious about Revelation 22:18-19, above, is that these words show a definate selfconsciousness within the "prophecy" itself, indicating an after-the-fact alteration and further evidence of the hashing and rehashing done to this mesmerizing text.

Perhaps these early Christians who were so desirous to give Revelation a Christian perspective also feared the consequences of altering the same writing and exacting upon themselves the wrath of God. As indicated previously, many Christians felt this writing was not of Christian origin. Evidently the group that worked to add Revelation to the cannonical text sincerely believed it was a writing coming from God. The stark difference of these 4 chapters in light of this passage warning alteration of the "prophecy" makes overall alteration of Revelation by their inclusion even more obvious.

The inescapable conclusion is that Revelation is not valid Christian, cannonical text and that such a prophesized, distant "second coming" was not in line with other Christian teachings is supported by nearly identical words in each book of Mathew, Mark and Luke being "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." These words were allegedly spoken on Mt Olives to the apostles and they clearly indicate that the 'second coming" of the Christ is expected within the lifetimes of atleast some of those apostles and not in some then distant, now current, apocalyptic change.

(Edited by Tripp at 8:43 am on Aug. 16, 2005)

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:15 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Houston, Texas
After reading some of the "Book of Enoch" i've come to this question. If Revelation is a description of what is/will happen during the time of Christ, were the other prophecies of an end time related to only their time or, is their a "revelation" that refers strictly to "The End Time"? The end time being the end of life on planet earth, or at least as we know it. i mean a total change such as the judgement that is so often mentioned. Even the Norse mythologies speak of a great battle between the gods that determine the fate of mankind.

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Georgia
TRIPP: I agree with your post that the Book of Revelation is NOTHING like it is taken by moderen Christianity - especially the eschatologists. BUT, it was definitely written by the early Christians!!! AND, it is a HISTORY of Jesus and the Christian movement from the time of the Crucifixion to 114 AD. Because the entire peoples and territories of the Hebrews and Christians were under the heavy thumb of the Roman Empire, this "living history" is disguised with all manner of OT and created mysticism and even, as you recognized, un- and contra-Christian scenarios. The intended obfuscation was to hide the ongoing strategy and activities of the rapidly expanding Christian movement and to protect the still-living Jesus from another ordeal and crucifixion by the Roman legal system. Jesus, the Disciples, and the entire Christian movement were living and working by their original concepts and had NOT reverted to Judaic beliefs or practices as given in Revelation. All just part of the "cover story" for an extremely important "log", a real-time capture of the Christian activities right under the noses of the Romans. This log/"now-history" of the last four decades of the life of Jesus and the next four decades of the Christian movement are far more moving and important than the story of a martyr who croaked on a cross in a few hours. But then, that's just my polytheistic opinion. Y'all do whatever ya need to protect your own beliefs.

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:26 am 
how wonderful to see the intensity with which you've tackled this TOME:revelation of bring up, the Truth, on this male dominated Travesty! and as you know, the Lies continue to be propagated by people who don't take the Time, to delve into, these Issues.
once again...a Job well done. best regards

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 1 [ 4 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: